How to be BELIEVABLE & DECISIVE: Key qualities of effective leadership

To be an effective leader, you need to be believable and decisive. In this video, Sabry Tozin, Vice President of Engineering at LinkedIn, explains “believability,” which is an important part of being a good leader. He also discusses how and why it is important to be decisive. We’ll also show you how to avoid the mistakes that can cost you dearly. So if you’re ready to make tough choices that will improve your leadership and believability, this video is for you! CHAPTERS -------- * [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=0s) Clips * [0:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=28s) Intro * [1:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=92s) What is “believability”? * [4:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=290s) What is the OCD framework? * [10:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=638s) We go from wanting to be right, to being afraid to being wrong * [11:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=683s) Why people with the most to lose seem least afraid * [14:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=854s) How hedging backfires * [16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=962s) Gender and race differences * [17:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=1064s) Real-life example from interviewing * [20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=1200s) Imposter Syndrome * [20:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=1245s) How can we help our direct reports become more believable? * [26:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=1560s) What happens when you don’t have much data? * [27:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=1645s) The importance of being fearless * [28:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=1685s) This system is not a charity. * [29:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOKTuMDVkY&t=1741s) We overvalue learning RESOURCES --------- * ⭐️ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabtozin/\](https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabtozin/) * ⭐️ Principles: Life and Work by Ray Dalio: [https://amzn.to/3EsHJoc\](https://amzn.to/3EsHJoc) TRANSCRIPT ---------- **Sabry:** \[00:00:00\] I believe, moves a person’s career more than anything I think it’s their impact and I think it’s their believability. **Sabry:** We go from wanting to be right, to being afraid to being wrong. **Sabry:** He said to me one day, “Be fearless.” I, I, I hear those words all the time in my head, **Sabry:** This system is not a charity. You did not get here by luck. Rely on that. **Vidal:** Just a very quick thing before we get \[00:00:30\] started. If you’re new here, my name is Vidal and you’re listening to the Managers Club podcast, where I chat with inspiring managers, visionary leaders, and highly successful professionals. We talk about how they got to where they are to learn insights and lessons that will help you develop as a leader and grow in your career. **Vidal:** You’re about to hear a conversation between me and Sabry Tozin, VP of Engineering at LinkedIn. Sabry will share with us a fundamental and non-obvious leadership principle. He calls believability. He will also discuss how and why it is so important \[00:01:00\] to be decisive. Sabry is a very insightful teacher. I hope you will enjoy this conversation as much as I did. **Vidal:** Good morning. Today I have with me Sabry Tozin, VP of Engineering at LinkedIn. Sabry, welcome to Managers Club. **Sabry:** Thank you. Thank you. Good morning. I don’t think I’ll ever get used to the fact that I’m a VP of Engineering at LinkedIn. **Vidal:** Oh, Sabry you’re very modest. You’re very modest. Um, um, Sabry it’s a real treat to have you here, and \[00:01:30\] so I just wanna jump right into it the other day. **Vidal:** You and I were discussing uh, “believability”, and that term has a very special meaning for you and you use it in a very powerful way. Um, so let’s just start off. What, what does believability mean to you, and why is that important? **Sabry:** Sure. So, um, the first time I, I actually read that term, I think I was reading Ray Dalio’s Principles. **Sabry:** And he has a view on it. I’ve, I sort of took that and, uh, made it my own in a way. \[00:02:00\] Uh, it, it became sort of one of those tenants, I believe, moves a person’s career more than anything is like, I think it’s two things actually. I think it’s their impact and I think it’s their believability. And specifically when I talk about believability, it’s this idea of, um, developing qualities that go beyond trust. **Vidal:** So could you say a little bit more about that? Like what do you mean qualities that go beyond trust? I think one day you were describing to me like there’s this trust circle and \[00:02:30\] there’s the people you’d start a business with and there’s people that you wouldn’t, **Sabry:** Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so oftentimes what happens is people come to me and they say, Hey, I, you know, I started working for this new manager his name is Vidal. **Sabry:** And you know, I get the sense he doesn’t really trust me. And I say like, Why? And they’re like, Well, it doesn’t allow me to do this or that. And I always tell people, Trust is like a, is like a credit score. If you look at somebody’s LinkedIn profile, if you look at their cv, you look at the experience that they have. **Sabry:** In many ways, \[00:03:00\] the world has vetted you on, like they’ve vetted that person on your behalf. They’ve, they’ve said to you, you know, this person with these qualifications is capable of doing X, Y, or z. Beyond trust. There’s this idea that, you know, people would allow you to do more than what you have or give you sort of freedom to do more things, or they will rely on you. **Sabry:** And I, I always say like, if you, if you think about difficult \[00:03:30\] decisions that you’ve made in your life, You know where you should live, who you should marry, who you should date. They’re like hard things. There’s a circle of people that you always go to, uh, you know, like, Hey, when it’s a financial problem, I go to this person. **Sabry:** When it’s a love problem, I go to this person. Or maybe, maybe that circle is very small. Maybe it’s one person you go to. What is the difference between those people? And this other group of people that you trust on a day to day basis? Well, those people are the \[00:04:00\] believable ones, and what they’ve done over time is they’ve been reliable and they’ve been consistent. **Sabry:** So they’ve come through for you and you know you can go to them when you have these specific issues or when they’re difficult decisions for you to make these believable. Have these qualities. They’re very consistent, they’re very reliable. And so I say to people, go from being trusted to being believable. **Sabry:** Go from being the person who’s who’s like a credit \[00:04:30\] score. You know, like the world has vetted you. Your LinkedIn profile speaks for you. Go from that. To being somebody that people rely on, that they go to because they know you will come through for them. And the way you do that is you’re, you’re consistent and you’re reliable. **Sabry:** That’s believability, It’s, it’s consistency and it’s reliability over time. **Vidal:** You have a framework also you were describing me call your OCD framework around this, \[00:05:00\] a very interesting name. What is the OCD framework? Yeah, **Sabry:** so you know when I would speak to people about believability and I would say to. Uh, I, I want you to be consistent. **Sabry:** I want you to be reliable. I started realizing that, uh, I, I, I needed to give them a framework or a way to think about how to bring consistency and reliability into, into their day to day. And, um, there was a, a moment where I noticed that I would sit in the room with people and I ask them difficult questions. **Sabry:** Uh, should we do this? \[00:05:30\] Should we do that? Where they felt the weight of the world on their shoulders? Hey, you know, here, here’s. This VP asking me a question or asking me what I should do, and I noticed that they wouldn’t answer me. They, they would, they would do pros and cons with me. Um, in fact, I, the, the first time I, I, I really noticed this cause I was doing it, you know, I noticed that I, I was having a hard time taking a position on things, uh, that, uh, it didn’t seem like I, I, \[00:06:00\] even though I felt in my heart, I had opinions. **Sabry:** I wouldn’t state them when I was. In groups. And so it actually started as a, as a process of self-discovery. And so I developed this, this, uh, framework to share to people to, to help them be more believable. And I called this framework OCD because, you know, everybody knows what OC D is and I thought it would stick. **Sabry:** So what’s ocd? For me, it’s opinions stated with conviction because they live on data. So O C D opinions, conviction data, \[00:06:30\] and I say to people, When you’re confronted by a difficult decision, you’re unsure what to do. Go to the data first, go to the signals. This is your foundation. Look at what the data says to you. **Sabry:** Um, from there, build conviction on it. On on an opinion, right? So now you have your data, it’s giving you some signals, but it’s helping you get conviction on the outcome. You want to, you want the outcome or outset of outcomes you want to get. \[00:07:00\] And then, uh, now you have an opinion. Go state this with conviction. **Sabry:** Like, go tell people this is not a pros and cons. This is not a hedge. Uh, you know, should I make a right or left? Well, you know, if you’re driving this way, you should make a left. If you’re driving that way, should don’t do that. Tell them you wanna go a specific direction, but take them on the journey with you. **Sabry:** Tell them how you got there and, you know, uh, I noticed that. So, so \[00:07:30\] one of the first times I, I had an experience that really affected me. I was on my way to work. I was getting ready for work and my, my wife was testing my son, uh, at home. Like he was having breakfast. He was like, so between bites of cereal, she was testing him for a spelling test he was having later that day. **Sabry:** And so she’d ask him to spell a word and he would spell it back. And, uh, specifically the word was doorknob. He got the word doorknob wrong. He forgot the K, so she’s, Oh, you \[00:08:00\] know what? You got the word wrong. You know, there’s a K in there. I sat there going, Why is there a K in that word? But let me not get distracted by that. **Sabry:** Uh, and this interaction really affected me because I, I, I could see the disappointment in my son’s face. So, uh, that day I drove to work on the drive to work. This, this interaction was bothering. At work in between meetings, this interaction was behind me. And it wasn’t until, uh, the drive \[00:08:30\] home that evening that like the light bulb went off and **Sabry:** I was like, ah, I know what’s bothering me. So I, I got home and I immediately went to my wife and I said, Hey. You know what I wanna deemphasize academics for, for the boys. And she’s like, What are you talking about? You know, like, uh, why, what, where’s that coming from? Um, and what I had realized is that school conditions us to believe that, you know, we \[00:09:00\] prepare, right? **Sabry:** That event is like a test pop quiz, whatever. That that event, Sort of, uh, measures whether or not your preparation was, was right, and you get measured right away. You, you get an A, you get a B, you get an F like you, you get measured right away. And what I realized is that life wasn’t like that. **Sabry:** Um, more often than not with events in your life, you prepare, \[00:09:30\] like you get ready and things happen. When those events happen, they are not the test. The reaction to those events is really the test in life more often than not. Right. Um, and I was thinking to myself, school conditions us to get it right at the moment the event happens. **Sabry:** Like get it right and if you don’t get it right, you were wrong and it punishes you. But life teaches you that things will \[00:10:00\] happen and it it like life wants to see how you’ll respond to those things. The test always happens after the event in life, and I think the more we get the test wrong, the more pain we feel, the more pain we feel because we got those tests wrong. **Sabry:** The teacher’s unhappy with us. We didn’t get a smiley face on our test. We start to avoid. So what I think happens is we go from wanting to be right to having \[00:10:30\] enough of these experiences where we go from wanting to be right, to being afraid to being wrong. This is, this is really important. We go from wanting to be right, to being afraid to being wrong. **Sabry:** Cuz you’ve experienced so many things. You carry so many things that you’re afraid to be wrong. And when you’re afraid to be wrong, you start to hedge. And so when people ask you difficult questions, you don’t answer with opinions because you don’t answer with opinions. You don’t become \[00:11:00\] believable, right? You hedge, Should I do this? **Sabry:** Should I do that? You do pros and cons. Well, maybe this, maybe that, and you lose in believability. **Vidal:** It, it’s really a, a great point. That’s an amazing insight that you shared with me. You also mentioned what’s really interesting too, is you’re afraid to be wrong because you’re afraid you’re gonna lose something. **Vidal:** Yes. Right? Yeah. But you mentioned also people who have the most to lose sometimes. Mm-hmm. \[00:11:30\] are like less afraid of this than the people. Like, can you talk a little about that? Cause it’s so interesting. **Sabry:** It’s, it’s so amazing to me like, You know, you’ll, you’ll often see, uh, entrepreneurs, you know, like, and you hear, Oh man, this, this person, they, they dropped outta school and they created this company. **Sabry:** And you’re like, Wait, wait a second. What’s, what’s going on here? Like, you know, I, I have all this education. I think one of the things that happens is like, the more we’ve invested in education and sort of the more we’ve \[00:12:00\] invested in. You know, uh, our formation or like, like, like sort of learning things, the, the less risk we want to take because we want to justify those investments. **Sabry:** It’s like, man, I, you know, I, I’ve never been to business school, but let’s assume I went to business school. I wanna justify that investment. The last thing I wanna do is take a chance on something. Whereas the person, let’s say, who hasn’t made those investments is freer to do those things. \[00:12:30\] And, um, you. Life, I think in many ways is about learning how to accept failure. **Sabry:** So like I, I was one of those kids who, who grew up playing a lot of sports and I was also the kid, like, who would, you know, sometimes cry after I lost because I, I, I hate losing more than I love winning. But learning how to lose is really important. Learning how to accept the pain of losing. and \[00:13:00\] recovering, um, and, and sort of going after it the next time is really important, but we, we tend to avoid that over time because it, because by definition these are not pleasant experiences and you know, like who wants to have unpleasant experiences in their lives? **Sabry:** So what happens is, like we, the more unpleasant experiences we accumulate in life, the more we also try to avoid those unpleasant experiences and the way we avoid those unpleasant experie. Is by \[00:13:30\] hedging. We, we, because if we hedge, we’re safe and there’s a little voice in us that says, you know, no, no, no, no, don’t do that. **Sabry:** We like, we remember last time we, we, we took a stance on something and, um, we were wrong and everybody thought we’re an idiot. That’s the last thing we want. Like we, you know, it, it’s imposter syndrome gets mixed up in there where we’re afraid to be the person who was wrong. We’re afraid to feel all of that, and so we just end up making these decisions that. **Sabry:** Or, \[00:14:00\] I’m sorry, I should say we avoid making decisions and therefore never really end up anywhere, Uh, significant. It’s so **Vidal:** interesting because like you say, you’re trying to avoid. You know, making these opinions mm-hmm. to protect yourself. Right. That right. That’s right. But actually it hurts you. It’s right. **Vidal:** It backfires on you. Yeah. Backfires. Yes. Yes. And, um, **Sabry:** especially, especially in the, in the setting of work, especially in the setting of, you know, \[00:14:30\] uh, like corporate America, if. Where there’s the, the qualities that are rewarded are like, is this person decisive? You think about leadership, right? So you and I are positions of leadership. **Sabry:** It’s like, Hey, is this person decisive? Do they make decisions? Are they good at making decisions? Are they more right than wrong? So on and so forth. Like a lot of these we’re being measured all the time. We feel like we’re being measured all the time, but the more we hedge, the less decisive. The less \[00:15:00\] decisive we looked, the more people say, Man, the cyber is like, this’s not a very good leader. **Sabry:** And, but what we’re re inside what’s happening is we’re saying to ourselves like, we wanna avoid unpleasant experiences. And, and maybe this is, this is the thing that, uh, fascinates me the most about this is like intellectually when you sit down with somebody and you say to them, Hey, you know, Growth is in, is in discomfort. **Sabry:** Right? This is a cliche, It’s sort of something we hear all the time. If you say to somebody there’s growth \[00:15:30\] in, in discomfort, intellectually, people get that right away. They’re like, Yeah, yeah, I totally get it. But in practice, they avoid the discomfort. They, because it, it, it’s unpleasant, right? And so to your point, I think. **Sabry:** What we end up doing is we, we build up behaviors that actually end up working against us, even though intellectually we know we shouldn’t do that. **Vidal:** So, so fascinating. Your observation. \[00:16:00\] Uh, are there, are there any gender differences or race differences concerning how to be **Sabry:** believable? Yeah, I, I think so. I, I think. **Sabry:** You know, there are experiences that we have, uh, as, uh, as individuals working in corporate America where, you know, whether you’re a woman or part of an under underrepresented group, you \[00:16:30\] tend to believe, like the system is wired to see you fail. Uh, I, I know, I feel like that as, you know, being black, uh, in tech, I am wired to believe that the system is expecting me to fail. **Sabry:** Is that, is that, um, is that rational? Probably not, but it’s, it’s how I’ve, I’ve been wired to, to, it’s what I expect, I should say. And so what happens is like the, the desire to hedge becomes even stronger \[00:17:00\] because I, you know, it’s like, hmm, why am I being asked this? Am I being tested? Like there’s, there’s almost like. **Sabry:** A paranoia that I would get where I would be like, Wait a second. Um, is this a trap? Is this, you know, what is this situation? And any time I felt those things, and I think this is, this is true for, for those of us who are part of underrepresented groups, is that every time we felt the, we feel these things, \[00:17:30\] we go into a cocoon and hedge even more. **Sabry:** And when we hedge, like. Here, here’s where it becomes really painful for us, is that it gets seen as a lack of confidence. So I’ll give you an ex, I’ll give you an example of what I mean. You go on an interview, uh, like I’ve interviewed thousands and thousands of people, right? Um, people go through an interview and let’s say you have a woman in the role and she, uh, \[00:18:00\] sorry, a woman as a candidate. **Sabry:** And you say, Hey, I noticed you had this experience on your resume. Like it looks like you did this amazing thing. Women might say to you, Oh yeah, yeah, you know what? Like fantastic team. I was surrounded by amazing people. I played a very small, small part in that, but we did like amazing work. Okay? **Sabry:** During the interview debrief, people might say something like, Ah, you know what? **Sabry:** She lacked confidence. You know, When I asked her about that thing, she talked about the team. \[00:18:30\] She just didn’t seem very confident. Male candidate. Same response in the debrief. Hey, he was so humble. He showed so much humility. **Sabry:** , I, look, these are unconscious biases. Um, it’s, it’s not like I’ve seen them all the time, but I don’t know that it’s rampant. **Sabry:** But I have seen them and I, I think it’s one of those things where the can. Is truly trying to tell you what happened. They’re, they’re, they’re, \[00:19:00\] they’re not trying to make themselves out to be more than what they are, but in a way, sometimes they also may be hedging on the answer because they’re afraid they may be perceived as the bossy woman. **Sabry:** And so they answer that question that way, right? There’s all sorts of things happening, but that dynamic ends up hurting them. and it, it’s, it’s again, one of those things where like, it, it, it can happen because there are, there are unconscious biases, but it’s also very important for me to say something here. **Sabry:** Like one of the things I’ve also learned is that imposter syndrome \[00:19:30\] doesn’t belong to one group. It doesn’t belong to just women. It doesn’t belong to just black or brown men like, The whitest guy you’d know, right with the, with the degree from the best institution you’ve heard of, can also feel this because there may be an expectation that because they are white male from that fantastic university.\[00:20:00\] **Sabry:** They should have the answers. And you know what? We’re all human. We don’t always have the answers. And so imposter syndrome, I think is this thing that it’s, it’s really a human thing. It, it doesn’t belong to one group or the other. And believability can end up playing in that where it affects everyone. **Vidal:** I think it’s a great point. **Vidal:** Yeah. Imposter Syndrome can lead you to like, not be believable, not being so Exactly. **Sabry:** Because you, yeah, because you hedge and I, and I think that can, that will affect everybody, \[00:20:30\] right? Sometimes because of the expectations that they, they believe that are sitting on their shoulders sometimes because of the experiences that they’ve had. **Vidal:** Um, how can you, I know you manage, obviously a lot of people and a lot of managers out there listening to this, how can we help our direct reports become more believable? **Sabry:** Yeah. So I think that, you know, once the concept resonates with you, one of the funny things that happens, like, so when I talk to people about \[00:21:00\] believability, I, I always use this example, I say to them, um, there are people in my family, right, that I love. **Sabry:** I like, I, I would take a bullet for these. But I would never start a business with them. I, I say this to them and I say, ask them, Can you relate to that? And you know, more often than not, people will laugh and say, Yeah, they, they, they think about that crazy uncle that they have or whatever, and they, they say, Yeah, um, yeah, I totally get what you’re saying. **Sabry:** And I say to them, The reason you wouldn’t start a business with those folks, even though you love them, \[00:21:30\] is because they’re not believable. You haven’t seen them be reliable, You haven’t seen them be consistent over time. And so the last thing you do is you, you start a business with them. This is step one, is once the concept starts to resonate with, with people, especially for your direct reports, they will start to see believability around them. **Sabry:** They, in fact, they will start to look for it. They, they will try to identify who in their lives are believable in who’s not. And so, and the, the concept starts to \[00:22:00\] resonate. You start to see it, I think. , this is step one, and the biggest thing that you can do is at least get people to a point where the notion, the concept resonates with them. **Sabry:** It may be in their own language, it may be in their own truth. They may interpret it in their own way, but generally, as long as the concept resonates, this is step one. Step two is then to say to them, Okay, now that you understand what this is, let’s analyze your language. Let’s analyze how. How you answer situation to your questions and \[00:22:30\] how you deal with tough situations, especially in places where you’re being asked to make tough choices. **Sabry:** So, um, we, we’ve, we’ve talked, uh, we talked a little while ago. We haven’t talked, uh, in I think a month or so, and, uh, I’ll share something new I learned with you about decisions, uh, that plays into this. So one of the things that I’ve learned about decisions. There are easy decisions that you have to make in your life that are very simple to decide. **Sabry:** \[00:23:00\] You know, should I have coffee? Should I have tea this morning? And then there are difficult decisions, right? These are the ones where you feel very unsure when you think about believability. It plays a big part in difficult decisions, and there’s a few things I’ve learned about difficult decisions recently. **Sabry:** One of the things I’ve learned is that if you wait long enough for a hard decision to become an easy decision, chances are you’ve waited too long. \[00:23:30\] So this is a way to identify a hard decision. And so when you’re talking to your directs, say to them for the difficult decisions, do you find that you have an opinion? **Sabry:** If it’s difficult for you to formulate an opinion, go to the data. What are the signals that you’re getting? Remember, this is o. , if you keep waiting for more and more data signals until that decision becomes an easy decision, you’ve waited too long. \[00:24:00\] Like, do not wait too long. So look for it. Third thing, now that you’ve, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve understood this is a difficult decision. **Sabry:** You’re unsure, you’re looking for the signals, but you’re trying to build an opinion around this. Take people along, especially the believable ones. So in your life, you’ll have believable people go to them, say, “Hey, I’m confronted by a difficult choice. I’m unsure what I need to do here. \[00:24:30\] These are the signals I’m seeing. **Sabry:** This is what I’m thinking about doing. What do you think?” When you do that and these people respond to you, it will give you even more conviction one way or the. It’s like your board of directors or whatever you want to call it, but go to the believable people in your life. Find them and ask them about the difficult choices that you’re making. **Sabry:** Ask them, how about the signals that you’re reading? Ask them. Ask them about how you’re interpreting the data and see if that resonates with them. \[00:25:00\] And if it does, it’ll give you even more conviction. And so when you do this and you sit down with people and you finally make your choice and you say, Between choices A and B, I believe we should do B, and this is why I believe we should do it. **Sabry:** You’re now taking people along the journey with you, and when you take people along the journey with you, you’re no longer making the decision alone. Because if you’ve read the data wrong, they \[00:25:30\] can opine at that point and say, Well, you know what’s, Sorry, I’m not sure. You know, you said you want to do this because of this, but that looks this way. **Sabry:** So when you make a decision, and you don’t walk people through how you got to that decision. You open yourself to making a decision on your own. When you walk people through how you’ve made that decision, when you give them context, you are no longer making the decision alone. And it’s a fantastic place to be \[00:26:00\] because you’re now bringing along, you’re bringing people along for the journey, and that’s where you always want to be. **Sabry:** And so, I’ve been walking my directs through this. I’ve been saying to them, Look at the choices that you’re making. Don’t wait for hard decisions to become easy ones. Go to the believable people in your life. Have them behave as a sounding board for you, for you. Use context and bring people along when you make these choices. **Vidal:** I think it’s really great the point you make about \[00:26:30\] not waiting to have too much data, right? Like, like in the military, you can’t wait to have all the data, you know, to act quickly on very little data sometimes. Yeah. Um, but let me ask this question. So you’ve mentioned so much data. What happens when maybe you just don’t really have much data? **Vidal:** It’s a whole brand new area. They’re asking about something that doesn’t exist and you don’t have much data. So, so now what do you do? **Sabry:** Yeah, so now, The best thing you can rely on is pattern recognition. Does this look like a pattern I’ve seen \[00:27:00\] before? You know, is this something that I recognize? But sometimes you don’t have that either. **Sabry:** Sometimes you’re unsure and you know, I say to people, Try to get as many signals as you can, but it’s not always gonna work out. Now if that’s the case, be fearless. You know, there, there’s a gentleman I used to work with at LinkedIn, Balaji Ramaswamy. He said to me one day, Be fearless. I, I, I hear those words all \[00:27:30\] the time in my head, like, Don’t worry about the pain if you’re unsure. **Sabry:** Trust your instincts. Trust your experience. Trust where you’ve been. Most of us did not get to where we are by luck. Sure. There was some luck there. It’s hard work. It’s grit. You know, I, I, I say this to women in tech all the time, , it just amazes me. Like, uh, you know, I’ll talk to like a VP at LinkedIn, uh, you know, \[00:28:00\] woman, and she’ll say to me, Well, you know what? I got good mentors. I’m like, Are you kidding me? Like, this system is not a charity. You did not get here by luck. Rely on that. And when you make your choices, be fearless in those choices. Be fearless that, you know, you may end up feeling a whole lot of pain that you, you may end up being wrong, that you may fail. Uh, as long as you’re learning from that, it’s all good. **Vidal:** I think \[00:28:30\] that’s really great cause I think it’s very easy, like I find myself. There’s all the expertise of all the other people. Mm-hmm. , but you kind of forget your own expertise. Right? Right. You say that you didn’t get there by accident, so so **Sabry:** how about I love how you put that. I, I love how you put that. **Sabry:** I, I think that you, so you just said two things that are, I think, incredibly important. You said you, you forget your expertise, right? Forgetting you and I talk about this all the time. I, I say to, \[00:29:00\] I say to you like, we overvalue learning. We always say, “Oh, I wanna go work at that place where I’m gonna learn something. **Sabry:** Oh, I wanna work for that person. They’re gonna teach me something.” Really, we also wanna be around people who will remind us. You know this, in fact, you just did it. This is something that, that like you do for me, is having people around you who remind you of things that you’ve forgotten is arguably more important than learning in my mind. **Sabry:** Uh, but. \[00:29:30\] You forget. So this is one and two of your expertise. You’ve built a set of skills like to get to where you are, um, you need a set of skills. One of the most mind blowing things I heard when I started working at LinkedIn five years ago. Skills are more important than a job. I just like, I sat there. **Sabry:** The one skills are more important than a job, but you think about our platform and what we do. We’re trying to, we want people to build skills, right? And so you got to where \[00:30:00\] you are because you built a bunch of skills, you learned a lot of skills along the way. You’ve, you’ve sort of equipped yourself with a set of skills. **Sabry:** Go rely on that. Like you did not get here by luck. This, these, this is not a charity. Amazing, amazing reminder for me. Thank you. **Vidal:** No thank you. No, it’s, that’s awesome. Uh, well, so you’ve been like super generous of your time. This has just been amazing. It’s always amazing to speak with you. If people \[00:30:30\] wanted to connect with you afterwards or you know, maybe to discuss believability or or anything else, what would be the best way for them to connect with you? **Sabry:** Hit me up on LinkedIn it’s an amazing platform. Exactly. Yeah. It’s an amazing, amazing platform. **Vidal:** Uh, Sounds good. Sory, thank you so much again. It’s been a pleasure to speak **Sabry:** My, my pleasure Vidal. You are one of my favorite colleagues, was really, really happy doing this. Thank you. #leadership #leadershipinsights #linkedin #blackintech